ga('send', 'pageview'); Depolarizing America with John Wood Jr. - Tending The Fire: A Journeymen Podcast

Episode 5

Depolarizing America with John Wood Jr.

Published on: 2nd April, 2022

1 5

John Wood Jr. is a national leader for Braver Angels, a former nominee for congress, former Vice-Chairman of the Republican Party of Los Angeles County, musical artist and a noted writer and speaker on subjects including racial and political reconciliation. Twitter @JohnRWoodJr

@JohnRWoodJr on X

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Transcript
John Wood Jr:

And so I think that ultimately being able to successfully

John Wood Jr:

empathize with somebody and develop a connection across some line

John Wood Jr:

of cultural difference, it has to be in part consequence of a shift

John Wood Jr:

internally, a shift within a person's, you know, own way of thinking.

John Wood Jr:

Now that's not to say you might not be thrown into a conversation across

John Wood Jr:

some, across some difference wherein you see something in the other

John Wood Jr:

person that you relate to, and it doesn't spark a difference in you.

John Wood Jr:

It's not to say that you have to achieve some level of enlightenment

John Wood Jr:

necessarily before you go into some of these cross-cutting conversations.

John Wood Jr:

But it is to say that what we seek to do is to build out sort of a larger kind of

John Wood Jr:

shift in our, you know, in the spirit of our conception of what it means to be a

John Wood Jr:

citizen in American democracy, if you will

Brant Evans:

hey guys.

Brant Evans:

And welcome to the show.

Brant Evans:

Today we have John Wood Jr.

Brant Evans:

Come into us.

Brant Evans:

He's the brand ambassador for Braver angels, which is an

Brant Evans:

organization that is dedicated to the depolarization of the American public.

Brant Evans:

And the sense of creating more of a sense of the American family

Brant Evans:

is I believe how he put it.

Brant Evans:

Jordan Bowman is also on he is one of the directors with a journeymen

Brant Evans:

triangle, which is an organization dedicated to group mentoring and rites

Brant Evans:

of passages work with boys 12 to 17.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

Brant Evans:

Hope you guys enjoy.

John Wood Jr:

Yeah, so we are a brave Rangels contemplating some initiatives

John Wood Jr:

that really involves sort of direct engagement with the most polarized

John Wood Jr:

groups in American politics which, you know, specifically means sort of

John Wood Jr:

mainstream of the Trump supporters.

John Wood Jr:

Conservative spirit of America and on the one hand in social justice oriented

John Wood Jr:

communities of color, on the other hand, and in the course of having these internal

John Wood Jr:

conversations about sort of the pretext for which we pursue this, the convening,

John Wood Jr:

these two groups together, possibly in strategic collaboration, over material

John Wood Jr:

issues, such as let's say, you know voter suppression slash voter integrity and

John Wood Jr:

other things, you know, we've thought a lot about, you know, questions that

John Wood Jr:

will come up over, you know, are the concerns that different groups have in

John Wood Jr:

their own eyes, at least about certain issues, sort of, sort of asymmetrical.

John Wood Jr:

What does questions of representation look like when you start pulling

John Wood Jr:

folks from these different groups in order to get them to share a space?

John Wood Jr:

How do we see to it that the braver angels.

John Wood Jr:

You know, ethos is asserting itself in a context where these other

John Wood Jr:

groups are bringing very different kind of, you know sort of social

John Wood Jr:

norms to a political dialogue.

John Wood Jr:

Particularly when it's not just about building empathy across divisions,

John Wood Jr:

but about potentially finding common ground on policy, let's say

John Wood Jr:

so we're, we're contemplating kind of moving more deliberately into

John Wood Jr:

that arena, you know at least more directly than we have up until now.

John Wood Jr:

And so let's just bring within all sorts of considerations and so forth.

Brant Evans:

Feeling grateful to have y'all on John grateful to yeah,

Brant Evans:

I mean, so fortunate to be able to plug in and have those conversations..

Brant Evans:

And so, John, I think just to throw it out there, you know, we mentioned this

Brant Evans:

before, but one of the things that, that we do with the mentoring group

Brant Evans:

mentoring is rites of passage work and this idea of really Joseph Campbell's

Brant Evans:

idea of the initiation and the hero's journey, and like crossing the threshold

Brant Evans:

into healthy masculinity for our boys and a community minded adulthood.

Brant Evans:

One of the things that we've done in the COVID era is do

Brant Evans:

outdoor, fully outdoor wilderness.

Brant Evans:

So of experiences for the boys where they're alone for 48 hours.

Brant Evans:

And we put a lot of intention into that container.

Brant Evans:

Now I was commenting with Jordan that it's, it's interesting cause

Brant Evans:

you know the Braver Angels piece is bringing people together, right?

Brant Evans:

To have the conversations and there's something intensely social about that.

Brant Evans:

And then the work that we've recently done is as Jordan would

Brant Evans:

say, it's, you know, within.

Brant Evans:

And so they're in a sense alone, even though there's the connection

Brant Evans:

in lots and lots of support and lots of ceremony that goes into it.

Brant Evans:

But it's, you know, it reminds me of a time in my life where I

Brant Evans:

remember, I remember I did a group relations conference, which is

Brant Evans:

like experiential group psychology experience, intensely social.

Brant Evans:

And then or like two weeks before that I had done a meditation retreat

Brant Evans:

where I'm just like completely by myself and just the, the

Brant Evans:

different facets of what I consider ingredients of important development.

Brant Evans:

But that kinda, that kinda difference was sticking with me

Brant Evans:

as we were prepping for this one.

John Wood Jr:

Well, do you want me to respond to this idea of a distinction

John Wood Jr:

being drawn between, gathering work focused in, on kind of internal reflection

John Wood Jr:

versus socializing people together in a way to where the focus is on getting

John Wood Jr:

to know about somebody else's kind of, you know, internal reality a little bit.

Brant Evans:

It sounds like you got something.

Brant Evans:

So yeah, it was hear

John Wood Jr:

it it's not pulling a question out

John Wood Jr:

of out of your analogy there.

John Wood Jr:

But yeah, it's a, it's an interesting distinction to be drawn.

John Wood Jr:

And of course I'm not deeply familiar with the process that you're

John Wood Jr:

describing, although I'm interested in it, particularly in understanding,

John Wood Jr:

you know, sort of how it is that interacts with the natural landscape

John Wood Jr:

with wilderness landscape that I think you're sort of mentoring young people

John Wood Jr:

to be able to, to, to function in.

John Wood Jr:

One thing I would say is that I do think that in braver angels where.

John Wood Jr:

When you zoom out a little bit and look at the full spectrum of our offerings, we

John Wood Jr:

do have something called a depolarizing polarizing within workshop, right?

John Wood Jr:

So for folks listening who are not familiar too much with the

John Wood Jr:

methodology of brave Rangers, we have a whole lot of different

John Wood Jr:

workshops as well as other forums.

John Wood Jr:

And we've got a lot of output that we, that we you know get out there

John Wood Jr:

that is aimed at convening people that dialogue across differences.

John Wood Jr:

But we do have some work that is about getting folks to look internally

John Wood Jr:

at their own attitudes to assess sort of what is polarized within

John Wood Jr:

you within your own psychology.

John Wood Jr:

When you think about folks on the other side of a particular, you know, identity

John Wood Jr:

or cultural divide, you know, what are the sort of, you know, what's the.

John Wood Jr:

Mental imagery or assessment that kind of instinctively surfaces.

John Wood Jr:

And, you know, we've got in this particular workshop exercises aimed

John Wood Jr:

at getting people to be sort of aware of what that reflexive kind of

John Wood Jr:

illustration is of the other side.

John Wood Jr:

And to refine that through a process of self-reflection and becoming

John Wood Jr:

educated about some of the deeper sorts of representations of just

John Wood Jr:

what a conservative actually is, or just what a liberal actually is.

John Wood Jr:

And, you know, coupled with some internal exercises that kind of

John Wood Jr:

focus in on, you know, how can I, you know, how can I hold this thought

John Wood Jr:

kind of in motion a little bit.

John Wood Jr:

And so I think that ultimately being able to successfully empathize with somebody

John Wood Jr:

and develop a connection across some line of cultural difference, it has to be in.

John Wood Jr:

part Consequence of a shift internally, a shift within a person's,

John Wood Jr:

you know, own way of thinking.

John Wood Jr:

Now that's not to say you might not be thrown into a conversation across

John Wood Jr:

some, across some difference wherein you see something in the other

John Wood Jr:

person that you relate to, and it doesn't spark a difference in you.

John Wood Jr:

It's not to say that you have to achieve some level of enlightenment

John Wood Jr:

necessarily before you go into some of these cross-cutting conversations.

John Wood Jr:

But it is to say that what we seek to do is to build out sort of a

John Wood Jr:

larger kind of shift in our, you know, in the spirit of our conception

John Wood Jr:

of what it means to be a citizen in American democracy, if you will.

John Wood Jr:

And part of what we want to sort of instantiating to that conception

John Wood Jr:

is an idea that Goodwill should be sort of the starting posture.

John Wood Jr:

With which we regard everybody in, you know, in, in the American family,

John Wood Jr:

let's say and that in, so doing this frees us up psychologically to be

John Wood Jr:

able to more effectively communicate across differences and to signal to

John Wood Jr:

people, the fact that disagreement does not make us enemies to each other.

John Wood Jr:

You know, at least not in my mind as an individual, therefore giving you

John Wood Jr:

permission to reciprocate some, some charity of understanding in return.

John Wood Jr:

So I would say that, you know, I think that there's not necessarily an

John Wood Jr:

ultimate separation to be made between the needs on the one hand focus

John Wood Jr:

inward and sort of, you know come to a deeper understanding of how one's

John Wood Jr:

internal universe operates and a more constructive kind of social dynamic.

John Wood Jr:

But I think it probably is also fair to say that we can look at these on a

John Wood Jr:

process level as occupying distinct the perhaps connectable sorts of, you know,

John Wood Jr:

sorts of lanes of, of of investigation and imagination you might say.

John Wood Jr:

So that was brought to my mind, as I heard you sort of point to the possibility

John Wood Jr:

of a contrast between those focuses.

Brant Evans:

Yeah, yeah.

Brant Evans:

Right on.

Jordan Bowman:

I've been to one of the depolarizing within workshops.

Jordan Bowman:

I thought it was, I thought it was really cool.

Jordan Bowman:

And I did that self analization.

Jordan Bowman:

I think it's definitely a commonality between what I Braver Angels.

Jordan Bowman:

And journeyman's that there's some level of self understanding that you

Jordan Bowman:

need in order to bridge bridge divides.

Jordan Bowman:

One of the, one of the things that comes up for me is I heard you mentioned

Jordan Bowman:

that like what bravery angels does is kind of like marriage counseling or

Jordan Bowman:

like you use the technology of marriage counseling in a purchasing divide context.

Jordan Bowman:

And in working with youth, there's a lot of kind of ego construction, right?

Jordan Bowman:

Like they're learning who they are, they're learning what their identity is.

Jordan Bowman:

And so like, I'm curious like, well, how would something like that apply if

Jordan Bowman:

you've never even had a girlfriend yet., like , you know, how's the marriage

Jordan Bowman:

counseling techniques going to land.

Jordan Bowman:

And again, like, I know we're kind of just exploring this.

Jordan Bowman:

I don't, I don't expect you to be an expert on this piece, but I'm curious

Jordan Bowman:

if you have any, any thoughts around how to appeal to the youth with

Jordan Bowman:

some of this kind of concepts and processes that you guys are using.

John Wood Jr:

Sure.

John Wood Jr:

Right.

John Wood Jr:

Well, yeah.

John Wood Jr:

I mean, you know, you put your finger on it.

John Wood Jr:

I think that the, when you look at when you look at our polarization, It is a,

John Wood Jr:

it, it is a tension, a combustible tension that exists between different groups,

John Wood Jr:

not just on the basis of intellectual differences of opinion on policy, but

John Wood Jr:

on a much more deeper and more sensitive levels of friction being perceived

John Wood Jr:

between us on the level of identity.

John Wood Jr:

Right.

John Wood Jr:

And what we take to constitute identity, whether it is, you know, an ethnic or

John Wood Jr:

religious markers or political markers, such as your party affiliation, or

John Wood Jr:

your stated ideological orientation, whether we think of these things

John Wood Jr:

explicitly or merely implicitly as, as identity with respect to ourselves, it

John Wood Jr:

is generally the case that our politics have been subject to sort of a.

John Wood Jr:

Phenomenon and, you know, an old familiar one in human civilizations where, and

John Wood Jr:

just showing up in a certain uniform or seeming to wear a certain uniform

John Wood Jr:

triggers a cascade of the assumptions that may not allow for the intervention

John Wood Jr:

of reason or empathy in delicate, you know social and political interactions,

John Wood Jr:

but with younger people and you know, I think this is more true that the

John Wood Jr:

younger you go they're still in the process of forming their identity.

John Wood Jr:

And therefore perhaps still in the process of solidifying their prejudices.

John Wood Jr:

Right.

John Wood Jr:

Which is, you know, the which I guess is the good news, really.

John Wood Jr:

And this is why, you know, folks, we all have an interest in being,

John Wood Jr:

you know, hopefully a constructive influence on, on the young, on the

John Wood Jr:

youth, the kiddos, God, I'm old.

John Wood Jr:

You know, I don't feel like until I start trying to think in terms of how I talk in

John Wood Jr:

a way that makes it seem like, you know, we might make young people interested,

John Wood Jr:

but this is why it matters, right?

John Wood Jr:

Because it is humanity in development and the potential for them to be

John Wood Jr:

better than us is still there.

John Wood Jr:

So, you know, that's why, what you guys do is so important.

John Wood Jr:

But how to connect it to what we do, you know I think that Brant you

John Wood Jr:

are well-equipped for what you do because you have an appreciation of

John Wood Jr:

the importance of story and miss.

John Wood Jr:

As really being sort of the doorways towards a, maybe a holistic kind of, you

John Wood Jr:

know, communication of a value system and a way of being in the world to

John Wood Jr:

folks who end to younger people in particular, who are not necessarily

John Wood Jr:

going to have, you know, the resources of deep political study or experience with,

John Wood Jr:

you know our larger kind of societal histories and, and storylines and so

John Wood Jr:

forth, you're able to get at something much more elemental through story.

John Wood Jr:

I do remember relatively recently actually just.

John Wood Jr:

On the cusp of the election, the presidential election last year

John Wood Jr:

giving a series of speeches to a private academy in Connecticut.

John Wood Jr:

That was K through 12.

John Wood Jr:

And so I gave three speeches.

John Wood Jr:

One was to the elementary school cohort.

John Wood Jr:

The other was to the middle school cohort.

John Wood Jr:

And then the last was to high schoolers and and some faculty.

John Wood Jr:

And so that did give me the opportunity to think very deliberately in terms of like,

John Wood Jr:

what is the develop developmental kind of added up sort of art to the message of

John Wood Jr:

rave Rangels in my own articulation of it.

John Wood Jr:

And how does that need to render itself in speaking to these different audiences?

John Wood Jr:

And I think all three of those speeches went really, really well.

John Wood Jr:

I, in a way I, I was most pleased with the first one with the youngest.

John Wood Jr:

Because it forced me to just think in strictly kind of

John Wood Jr:

elemental in architectural terms.

John Wood Jr:

And as I was searching my memory a little bit, but I started off,

John Wood Jr:

I actually Brandt, I think he would have been proud of me, man.

John Wood Jr:

I started off you know, with something was Spiderman reference,

John Wood Jr:

you know, and I found an excuse to work in the whole with great power

John Wood Jr:

comes, great responsibility angle.

John Wood Jr:

And I think where I kind of began with that was to let you know, let these

John Wood Jr:

kids know that, you know, you're not thinking in these terms yet, but each

John Wood Jr:

of you is a citizen of the United States of America, which is, you know,

John Wood Jr:

for a long time been, you would say the most powerful and country in

John Wood Jr:

the world and the country, which is meant to set the standard in terms of

John Wood Jr:

freedom and equality for the world.

John Wood Jr:

And not to say that we do so perfectly or don't, but within that country, you,

John Wood Jr:

as citizens, as members of your community and as you know, kids are going to

John Wood Jr:

become adults with voices and minds that can shape the things around them, have

John Wood Jr:

great power and influence, you know?

John Wood Jr:

And so you'll be, you will become the heroes in your own story, but what

John Wood Jr:

gives us the power to ultimately, you know, move that story towards the good.

John Wood Jr:

And so then I shifted into you know, a story that I know well, which is

John Wood Jr:

the Lord of the rings story, you know?

John Wood Jr:

And I started to, I think I talked a fair amount about Frodo

John Wood Jr:

and the ring and what made fro.

John Wood Jr:

Able to, you know ultimately though he was not large though.

John Wood Jr:

He was not strong though.

John Wood Jr:

He didn't even really have a, a strong understanding of the history of the

John Wood Jr:

world that he was operating and he wasn't Gandalf, he wasn't Aragorn, he

John Wood Jr:

didn't know the history of Ghandour or, you know, SA siren or, you know, all of

John Wood Jr:

these other things, but Frodo was able to bear a tremendous burden, a tremendous

John Wood Jr:

responsibility because he of his nature had an ability to see the best in people

John Wood Jr:

to not hold on to bitter grievances.

John Wood Jr:

And therefore he was able to hold the ring and the ring itself, being this

John Wood Jr:

powerful sort of vehicle for exploiting the inner, the inner sorts of, you know,

John Wood Jr:

demons that we have within ourselves tended to be very corrupting of much

John Wood Jr:

more powerful and more educated.

John Wood Jr:

People warriors and wizards of life, but Frodo, you know, I had this powerful

John Wood Jr:

potential because he had not really been corrupted by, by those, by those

John Wood Jr:

temptations and those, those streams of, of, of bitterness, those streams

John Wood Jr:

of, of hatred and fear and grievance.

John Wood Jr:

And what have you I made the point to, to these kids that, you know,

John Wood Jr:

right now you kids are all Frodo and that means that you have the potential

John Wood Jr:

to kind of save us from ourselves.

John Wood Jr:

The rest of us have all drunk in sort of these partisan and polarizing

John Wood Jr:

narratives, you know, in some of your parents are Republican.

John Wood Jr:

Some of your parents are Democrats, you know you know someone's your

John Wood Jr:

PA your parents may be maybe both.

John Wood Jr:

You may have one in each and each side.

John Wood Jr:

I said, the thing that I want to, that you may not yet be fully aware of, but that

John Wood Jr:

you will come to notice is as you grow, or maybe you haven't noticed it and given the

John Wood Jr:

backdrop of the Trump election it's the fact that right now all our entire country

John Wood Jr:

is listening to one story or another.

John Wood Jr:

That basically is making the point that your mother or your father are the enemy

John Wood Jr:

are in some sense, a bad, bad person, or somebody who should not be trusted.

John Wood Jr:

This is the story that the country is telling right now about your

John Wood Jr:

parents in one way or the other.

John Wood Jr:

But you being your parents, children know that your parents love, you know, that

John Wood Jr:

your parents have goodness within them.

John Wood Jr:

And that there's, there's ever so much to be, to be loved and respected

John Wood Jr:

and admired about your mom and dad.

John Wood Jr:

I said, there's a difference between the story that the country is

John Wood Jr:

telling itself about your parents and what you know, to be true.

John Wood Jr:

And so in coming to, you know, appreciate that, you know, I, I think

John Wood Jr:

I tried to communicate the idea that, you know, there's sort of a journey.

John Wood Jr:

In front of all of us, but certainly in front of these young people wherein they

John Wood Jr:

will have to come to understand what the legit, what the sort of legitimate

John Wood Jr:

reason is for the differences that caused us to distrust each other in American

John Wood Jr:

life are while at the same time, never letting go of what they know already,

John Wood Jr:

which is that at the end of the day, you know these pictures that we're

John Wood Jr:

painting, you know, of their parents is not the true image of who, of who they

John Wood Jr:

are, even if the stories exist for a reason in our national consciousness.

John Wood Jr:

So, you know, I'm my memory of what I said to these kids was imperfect, but

John Wood Jr:

it did seem to be impactful to be able to communicate these things in terms

John Wood Jr:

of, you know, in terms of Marvel and middle, middle earth and so forth.

John Wood Jr:

And really these are modern applications of essentially sort of mythological

John Wood Jr:

sorts of narrative structures.

John Wood Jr:

I think you'd probably agree Brant or at least that there's a deep connection.

John Wood Jr:

So, you know I think that it becomes important for us to know.

John Wood Jr:

And I wouldn't pretend to brave Rangels is quite gotten there yet,

John Wood Jr:

but the more we think in terms of reaching young folks, I really, this

John Wood Jr:

is powerful for, for adults as well.

John Wood Jr:

You know, it's worth considering how it is.

John Wood Jr:

We can more effectively apply story and archetype, myth, popular cultures, so on

John Wood Jr:

and so forth to how we communicate the imperative for this sort of transcendence.

John Wood Jr:

And, and Chloe Valdary is someone who I think does this very well

John Wood Jr:

"Theory of Enchantment" and her approach to diversity, equity,

John Wood Jr:

inclusion, work et cetera.

John Wood Jr:

So yeah, so those are some opening thoughts, and that is an example

John Wood Jr:

of how I've tried to communicate effectively with kids of a certain age.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

Brant Evans:

I, I appreciate the optimism and, and hope in that piece too.

Brant Evans:

It's kind of a hard act to follow, but one of the big pieces that I struggled

Brant Evans:

to place right now are some, we have some understanding about how the adolescent

Brant Evans:

brain develops and how it works, and there's less of a capacity for them

Brant Evans:

to tap into the prefrontal cortex.

Brant Evans:

You know, the thinking that, that part of the brain that you guys really do that

Brant Evans:

work of, of speaking to, like, if you're, depolarizing, you're taking that minute,

Brant Evans:

you're tapping into the thinking part like learning how to take that pause.

Brant Evans:

That's really hard for adolescents.

Brant Evans:

It was for me.

Brant Evans:

And the science says that too, right.

Brant Evans:

And at the same time, they are being bombarded with political information

Brant Evans:

and propaganda on both sides and through channels that, I mean really

Brant Evans:

hard for me to even imagine, you know, I'm, I'm not that older, that

Brant Evans:

far away from being a teenager.

Brant Evans:

There's no comparison.

Brant Evans:

You know, I don't have, I don't have one of the, I didn't have one of these in

Brant Evans:

my pocket that was just blasting me with news sources and narratives constantly.

Brant Evans:

So we talk about stories and I guess that what I'd offer is that

Brant Evans:

it works, it works both ways.

Brant Evans:

I think that younger, younger minds can, can really soak in those stories

Brant Evans:

at a deep level, without necessarily knowing that that's happening.

Brant Evans:

And my concern is that, you know, are we, are we, are we being good stewards?

Brant Evans:

Are we being good storytellers to the younger generation?

Brant Evans:

I know that we have some people who pay a lot of attention to that

Brant Evans:

and are really pushing for that.

Brant Evans:

I like to think we, we formed a really powerful story around

Brant Evans:

like the work that our guys did just recently on that weekend.

Brant Evans:

And, you know, I'm definitely concerned on a more cultural level that You know

Brant Evans:

that we are not being good storytellers, that we are, we're telling stories that

Brant Evans:

it will take us apart that we'll explore it, you know, like the algorithms versus

Brant Evans:

an adolescent mind that kind of like orientation seems troubling, I'll say.

John Wood Jr:

Hmm, right.

John Wood Jr:

Well, yeah, it definitely is.

John Wood Jr:

We're just releasing a actually today.

John Wood Jr:

We just released a podcast with Tristan Harris.

John Wood Jr:

So our second conversation, but yeah, but this has come out on

John Wood Jr:

the braver angels podcast today.

John Wood Jr:

And you know, what Justin talks about is how it is that the design of social

John Wood Jr:

media, the major social media platforms and you know, other algorithmically

John Wood Jr:

driven platforms and distribute content, facilitate communication.

John Wood Jr:

Is meant to sort of overwhelm human sense-making abilities you know,

John Wood Jr:

as a, as a means of keeping your attention focused in, on the on your,

John Wood Jr:

on your social media feed, right.

John Wood Jr:

Because your attention is monetized, of course.

John Wood Jr:

And, and so, you know, with, with adults we are overwhelmed by a system

John Wood Jr:

that on the basis of our, you know, sort of essential kind of, of demographic

John Wood Jr:

information and just a little bit of input in terms of what we've voluntarily

John Wood Jr:

start off, clicking on and so forth.

John Wood Jr:

No, because the the, the platform.

John Wood Jr:

Have essentially, you know, unlimited data showing how it is that folks of a certain

John Wood Jr:

demographic with a certain sort of content preference will themselves be inclined

John Wood Jr:

to consume more and more information and stimulus that is sort of trotted out in

John Wood Jr:

the vein of what they can anticipate.

John Wood Jr:

One's preferences to be.

John Wood Jr:

You are overloaded with recommendations and posts and you know, that speak to

John Wood Jr:

your to what you want to see, but to the wants that arise potentially from

John Wood Jr:

parts of you that are undisciplined and easy to exploit from your, from

John Wood Jr:

your fears every bit, as much as your, your wants and desires and

John Wood Jr:

prejudices and so on and so forth.

John Wood Jr:

We as adults are overwhelmed by all of this, and it's warping our

John Wood Jr:

ability to communicate with each other and to reason with each other

John Wood Jr:

and to make sense of the world.

John Wood Jr:

And of course, with young people and adolescents in particular on social

John Wood Jr:

media there is this terrible sort of intersection with on the one hand,

John Wood Jr:

you know, a young person being in a formative stage in their life where

John Wood Jr:

they're trying to come to grips with their identity and everybody is insecure

John Wood Jr:

and trying to understand who they are and they're being presented with the

John Wood Jr:

face of reality, let's say on Instagram and in certainly the more visual social

John Wood Jr:

media sites wherein everybody is sort of motivated to present the most idyllic

John Wood Jr:

possible representation of their reality.

John Wood Jr:

You know in a way that one doesn't really reflect people's reality.

John Wood Jr:

Makes other people feel like they're missing out on all the happiness

John Wood Jr:

of life and that leads directly to depression and even suicide,

John Wood Jr:

particularly among young girls from, from what I understand, teenage girls.

Brant Evans:

Yeah, Jonathon Haight he hits on that.

Brant Evans:

I think pretty friendly around like the effect with adolescent

Brant Evans:

girls being, yeah, just real quick.

Brant Evans:

I want to throw out this thought this, we were talking about the archetypes and

Brant Evans:

this popped into my head, as you were speaking, it seems like we are, we've

Brant Evans:

designed AI and the algorithms to invoke the addict archetype in ourselves because

Brant Evans:

that it's easy to make money off of that.

Brant Evans:

Right?

Brant Evans:

Like if, if you know, if we're, if we're invoking the healthy king archetype

Brant Evans:

and young men, for example, that's a little harder to profit off of, right?

Brant Evans:

Because there's an independence in a autonomy and and a

Brant Evans:

generosity that comes with that.

Brant Evans:

It's a lot harder to predict.

Brant Evans:

It's a lot harder to just make a quick dollar off of.

Brant Evans:

And so we've.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

Brant Evans:

Again, if a lot of it is AI, right?

Brant Evans:

So there's not like that conscious intention there, but what do we see?

Brant Evans:

We see material that's designed to like, suck us into these dark fantasies, to

Brant Evans:

where we're just doing the scrolling on Twitter on Instagram or whatever it is.

Brant Evans:

I love that.

Brant Evans:

And yeah.

Brant Evans:

And we're predictable, you know, the addict is predictable.

John Wood Jr:

And I think that it is possible as we consider how it is that

John Wood Jr:

what we know with respect to how we may developmentally progress towards

John Wood Jr:

being more empathetic and loving human beings and how that can translate into

John Wood Jr:

social strategies that allow us to build stronger communities and even you know,

John Wood Jr:

more deeply rooted democratic processes.

John Wood Jr:

I think it's possible to wed those insights to some objective in the digital

John Wood Jr:

and social media and technological space that says, okay, how can we take

John Wood Jr:

those insights and feed them into some architectural representation of, you

John Wood Jr:

know, what the hero is, what the good king or queen is and represent that, you

John Wood Jr:

know, somatically or somehow, or other narrative fashion in a way that allows

John Wood Jr:

social media and digital interaction to play out as something of a video

John Wood Jr:

game that cultivates, you know, those aspects of, of character, you know,

Brant Evans:

can I, can I stop you for one second?

Brant Evans:

So.

Brant Evans:

I'm realizing, I guess, more and more that, you know, the story,

Brant Evans:

getting the stories, right.

Brant Evans:

Telling the right stories and ask, and then also like fostering

Brant Evans:

a curiosity about the stories.

Brant Evans:

That's I would argue that that's a part of this and part of the picture of what's

Brant Evans:

needed for, for youth specifically.

Brant Evans:

There's another piece though, where that's not enough and there needs to

Brant Evans:

be an anchor to reality because, you know, we can have like people on the far

Brant Evans:

right way out there who love the Lord of the rings and people on the far left,

Brant Evans:

who love the Lord of the rings, right.

Brant Evans:

Who are in, and they are convinced that they're living the hero's journey

Brant Evans:

of that story and that archetype.

Brant Evans:

And that's why, right.

Brant Evans:

So there's a piece of it.

Brant Evans:

And I think this again, connects to the Braver Angels thing.

Brant Evans:

I don't have a way to cleverly correlate this specifically with

Brant Evans:

like teenagers necessarily, but that seems very true to me, right.

Brant Evans:

That we can't just, it's not just like, here are the stories.

Brant Evans:

It's how do we interpret them and how do we anchor them?

Brant Evans:

Right.

Brant Evans:

Because that's the, those are the most powerful moments for me is, is when

Brant Evans:

you have that, the whatever feedback from your environment or a mentor

Brant Evans:

or somebody you trust, who's giving you the clue that maybe you're not

Brant Evans:

like acting out that character's arc and the way that you think you are.

Brant Evans:

Right?

Jordan Bowman:

Well, I'm going to, yeah.

Jordan Bowman:

Can I jump in there?

Jordan Bowman:

Because when John, when you were talking about Lord of the Rings,

Jordan Bowman:

I started to get this picture.

Jordan Bowman:

You, you mentioned kind of the stories that were being told, the narratives

Jordan Bowman:

that are coming down are putting the older people who have formed

Jordan Bowman:

identities and foreign prejudices into right, Rohan, Gondor or Elves.

Jordan Bowman:

Right.

Jordan Bowman:

And there they're solidified in news.

Jordan Bowman:

And what came to mind for me?

Jordan Bowman:

Well, what about like the Aragon's and what about the Gandalf's

Jordan Bowman:

and even Theoden who, who had that council and said, well, no,

Jordan Bowman:

we're not going to support Gondor.

Jordan Bowman:

And then, and then he had this moment of like transcendence,

Jordan Bowman:

where it was like, wait a minute, there's there's a higher order.

Jordan Bowman:

There's like a, there's something else at stake here.

Jordan Bowman:

There's this archetypical battle of good and evil that I'm going to transcend my

Jordan Bowman:

tribal story to belong to and same thing with, and he's like, you know, Aragon.

Jordan Bowman:

I love Lord of the Rings?

Jordan Bowman:

Don't know where the rings.

Jordan Bowman:

I'm sorry if you're listening to this podcast,

Brant Evans:

just assume they know it, man.

John Wood Jr:

Yeah, yeah.

John Wood Jr:

Trigger warning upfront or disclaimer, but I want to watch

John Wood Jr:

the Lord of the Rings first,

Brant Evans:

but so here's, here's the thought.

Brant Evans:

So again, this is like a lot, a lot of my work is thinking

Brant Evans:

about roles and organizations.

Brant Evans:

And I, I think I can honestly say there've been times in my life where

Brant Evans:

I've been fricking Wormtongue like I've been in that like bitter and like

Brant Evans:

whispering into like somebody's ear.

Brant Evans:

But if you asked me, you know, I think I'm, Aragorn, I'm like

Brant Evans:

fighting the good fight, right?

Brant Evans:

Like I'm, I'm the good guy here.

Brant Evans:

Obviously like we, we, this isn't an original thought in that sense, but you

Brant Evans:

know, I wonder like this isn't a message.

Brant Evans:

I hear a lot, but I really do think there's something around

Brant Evans:

like, how do we anchor the story?

Brant Evans:

How do we.

Brant Evans:

How do we draw out perspective around like how we're acting out the archetypes?

Brant Evans:

That's an important piece that, you know, I don't think we get a lot of,

Brant Evans:

it's like, here's the Game of Thrones.

Brant Evans:

Here's the story.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

John Wood Jr:

So, I mean, one person who does provide an immense amount of

John Wood Jr:

insight into that process, or these versions of that process is Jordan

John Wood Jr:

Peterson will be well familiar with.

John Wood Jr:

And that really is what Jordan does.

John Wood Jr:

I mean, I think that you're right Brandt that, that you don't see a lot of that

John Wood Jr:

out there, but that's kind of the main thing Jordan does in, in, in my mind,

John Wood Jr:

you know, he establishes the archetypes very significance in terms of what

John Wood Jr:

they suggest about the human spirit individually and collectively, and also

John Wood Jr:

how it evolves and progresses over time.

John Wood Jr:

But then he weds that to practical insights about, you know, how

John Wood Jr:

you do manifest those calls.

John Wood Jr:

In your day-to-day life, you know, cleaning room, sit up straight, you know,

John Wood Jr:

all of that, you know, I think he manages to, you know, tie that to, you know how

John Wood Jr:

it, you know how it is that you actually slay a fricking dragon so forth, you

John Wood Jr:

know, at least at least metaphorically.

John Wood Jr:

So you're, you're right, man.

John Wood Jr:

There's, that is the case.

John Wood Jr:

And I understand why you say that in the context of recognizing the fact

John Wood Jr:

that, you know, we can all be aware of these stories and still be wildly at

John Wood Jr:

odds with each other, because we are perhaps interpreting the implications

John Wood Jr:

of these stories differently.

John Wood Jr:

And, you know, I mean, how many, you know, the Bible, whatever anybody's

John Wood Jr:

particular religious beliefs are about it is, you know, clearly even if

John Wood Jr:

it is not just this, it is clearly a, a compendium of archetypes and

John Wood Jr:

narratives, you know, how many wars have been fought within Christianity?

John Wood Jr:

Over differing interpretations of the same stories.

John Wood Jr:

Right.

John Wood Jr:

And yet I think that particularly in the modern age, we have this sense

John Wood Jr:

that if, if all folks who called themselves Christian were actually like,

John Wood Jr:

Jesus, you wouldn't have any of that.

John Wood Jr:

You know, which I also believe is true, but to be like Christ, to be like,

John Wood Jr:

Jesus it seems like you have to know more than just, you know, he, he he was

John Wood Jr:

born, you know, he preached a message.

John Wood Jr:

He got crucified died, came back to life.

John Wood Jr:

And, you know, in the midst of all that said, Hey, everybody better believe in me.

John Wood Jr:

You know, there actually has to be sort of a deep understanding of, you

John Wood Jr:

know, what is the spiritual, internal, spiritual reality of somebody who, who

John Wood Jr:

literally loves not just their neighbors, but loves their enemies, you know?

John Wood Jr:

What does that look and feel like from the inside out and how does you know, and

John Wood Jr:

how does that then manifest in conduct?

John Wood Jr:

It's one thing to watch, watch the movie, you know, Lord of the rings

John Wood Jr:

or whatever, and to have fun with the fight scenes and all that.

John Wood Jr:

It's another thing of course, to deeply contemplate what these things reflect

John Wood Jr:

about, you know, the the reality of human nature and the spiritual struggles

John Wood Jr:

with which we are all engaged.

John Wood Jr:

And so reflection on the stories has got to be more important even than

John Wood Jr:

the stories themselves, in some sense, because there's a harvesting that has

John Wood Jr:

to take, take place, you know, if your characters compelling and heroic to you

Brant Evans:

Getting the good side of John Wood here.

Brant Evans:

This is awesome.

Brant Evans:

Yeah.

John Wood Jr:

All sorts of usual stuff for me.

John Wood Jr:

This is great.

John Wood Jr:

Jordan Peterson has said this directly, and I remember him saying this about

John Wood Jr:

the book Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, which is a very, I don't know if you

John Wood Jr:

guys have read it, but obviously, you know, it has so much to do with

John Wood Jr:

informed you know, libertarian and anarchism, even perhaps thinking and

John Wood Jr:

you serve an important philosophical texts, but it's also a story.

John Wood Jr:

Right.

John Wood Jr:

And I read it and you know, I, it certainly influenced my perspectives

John Wood Jr:

on things, but Peterson named something about that book that I felt loud reading

John Wood Jr:

it, but never consciously articulated to myself until he had said it.

John Wood Jr:

And when you read that book, what Atlas Shrugged is in essence about, is a

John Wood Jr:

status society, United States of America, some version of it, she wrote, I think

John Wood Jr:

back in the fifties, if I remember.

John Wood Jr:

That had been, you know, a state of society utterly taken over by bureaucrats

John Wood Jr:

and so forth, who basically sort of viciously vindtivctely viciously and

John Wood Jr:

vindictively scapegoated, the most productive people in society, right?

John Wood Jr:

Jordan Peterson and talking about Atlas Shrugged made the point that,

John Wood Jr:

you know, it's a very interesting book.

John Wood Jr:

But it fails to be, it fails to be great literature.

John Wood Jr:

You can't have great literature without the conflict, primarily being internal.

John Wood Jr:

There's like no internal conflict in Atlas, shrugged.

John Wood Jr:

You know, all the characters are sure of themselves from start to finish and

John Wood Jr:

as such, you know, it's missing you know, something deep and it actually,

John Wood Jr:

this, this takes me to something else.

Brant Evans:

Real quick, I do want to say another one that a story that had had it,

Brant Evans:

it had it at the beginning and then as tailed off, and I believe you're a fan of.

Brant Evans:

You know what I mean?

Brant Evans:

You know, I'm going to say John.

Brant Evans:

I think I do.

Brant Evans:

I think I do Dragon Ball Z

Brant Evans:

oh,

John Wood Jr:

I thought you were going to say game of Thrones, but

John Wood Jr:

I agree with you on that front too.

John Wood Jr:

Yeah, no, I agree with that.

John Wood Jr:

A dragon ball Z.

John Wood Jr:

I love dragon.

John Wood Jr:

I love dragon ball Z right up until the end of I, although I think that

John Wood Jr:

the best of dragon ball Z was up until freezer, but I, but I still dug it all

John Wood Jr:

the way up to the end of into cell.

Brant Evans:

But, but I, in my mind, that's a, that's a, a story that

Brant Evans:

lost the architectural mandate.

Brant Evans:

They would have their compelling archetype story and then it crumbled.

Brant Evans:

They lost it.

Brant Evans:

It slipped through,

Brant Evans:

. Jordan Bowman: But what we're basically

Brant Evans:

their, their stories of those years and map those to the hero's journey

Brant Evans:

and then map that to their life.

Brant Evans:

And so I'm looking forward to your series with braver angels doing

Brant Evans:

that same thing across the country.

John Wood Jr:

You guys are, do you guys give me ideas, man, you may be laughing,

John Wood Jr:

but you know, it might have to bring you guys in to help us out with yeah.

John Wood Jr:

Yeah.

Brant Evans:

I think there's a, a huge potential for something like that.

Brant Evans:

The teenage level, because we're already bombarding them with political messaging.

Brant Evans:

So yeah, no, I mean, to me do the best ideas come out when I'm laughing.

Brant Evans:

So, you know, but, okay.

Brant Evans:

I want to know this.

Brant Evans:

This is interesting for our, our little process in this podcast.

Brant Evans:

We, we brought out this idea of talking to.

Brant Evans:

about young men or adolescents, young men and young women, and you know,

Brant Evans:

where do we, where do we go with it?

Brant Evans:

We like went to our stories and like, it had like a, to me it had like a childlike

Brant Evans:

feel to it, which is pretty cool.

Brant Evans:

I don't know.

Brant Evans:

I think there's something about doing that work in and contemplating that,

Brant Evans:

that like brings out and like gets at least me back in touch with some of

Brant Evans:

those pieces that are I definitely don't want to lose touch with Jordan.

Brant Evans:

I mentioned on the weekend when we were doing hosting the solos, I was

Brant Evans:

like just running up the Hills, which reminded me of when I was a little

Brant Evans:

boy, she's still like, run like crazy.

Brant Evans:

And yeah, there's something about like touching on it and discussing it.

Brant Evans:

Th that like brings it back up.

Brant Evans:

That's my, that's my theory at least.

Brant Evans:

Oh, sorry.

John Wood Jr:

So you mean just referring back to one's own

John Wood Jr:

childhood stories as a way of.

John Wood Jr:

Connecting and, and sort of illustrating your own, your

John Wood Jr:

own journeys or, I mean, yeah.

John Wood Jr:

What was it

Brant Evans:

like listening to you get excited about the stories,

Brant Evans:

you know, there's like a youthful, like adolescent energy there.

Brant Evans:

That's awesome.

Jordan Bowman:

Well and the D and for me, mine was Lord of the Rings, right?

Jordan Bowman:

Like growing up, like, and I was so into it.

Jordan Bowman:

So when you were bringing that up, I was like running with this metaphor and

Jordan Bowman:

like, understanding like these elements of on a societal and cultural level.

Jordan Bowman:

Right.

Jordan Bowman:

If we are, if we are an adolescents as a society in some ways, right?

Jordan Bowman:

Like in which ways are we coddling Americans and saying, oh, no, like, go

Jordan Bowman:

with your mother, ride that horse right.

Jordan Bowman:

In the Rohan scene where the two kids go up the hill and

Jordan Bowman:

they hide in the helm steep.

Jordan Bowman:

Right?

Jordan Bowman:

Like, how are we treating people like that versus inviting them to the council

Jordan Bowman:

where they're making the decision, like invite Gondor to help them fight

Jordan Bowman:

or whatever, you know what I mean?

Jordan Bowman:

Like those kinds of things, they make it click for me.

Jordan Bowman:

And I think that's going to be true with, with youth.

Jordan Bowman:

I just, I need to catch up on my Dragon Ball Z again to deliver

Jordan Bowman:

this content later this summer.

Brant Evans:

You know, I really enjoyed this conversation.

Brant Evans:

I love the work you do.

Brant Evans:

Yeah, you're, you're a rock star out there, man.

Brant Evans:

So keep it up..

Brant Evans:

I wonder what, what ways we could engage teens.

Brant Evans:

I think that's a big part of the conversation and maybe a

Brant Evans:

way that braver angels could even like expand its impact, so

John Wood Jr:

yeah, yeah.

John Wood Jr:

100%.

John Wood Jr:

Hey, this has been a lot of fun guys and you did give me an opportunity to range

John Wood Jr:

out of it, but I'd usually get to do, but it's all, it really is all important stuff

John Wood Jr:

because we tend to compartmentalize the social questions, but really all of it

John Wood Jr:

is about the whole of our culture really.

John Wood Jr:

And there's so many resources there to be drawn upon that we don't initially

John Wood Jr:

think about when we think in terms of how to impact these problems.

John Wood Jr:

Right?

John Wood Jr:

So, yeah, conversations like these matter.

John Wood Jr:

So I'm glad we got to have one.

Brant Evans:

Well, I'm checking out grateful.

Brant Evans:

John really awesome to have this conversation.

John Wood Jr:

Checking out grateful.

Jordan Bowman:

Yeah.

Jordan Bowman:

I'm checking out with a lot of, a lot of Dragon Ball Z that I need to watch.

John Wood Jr:

We're really here to do.

Brant Evans:

It's awesome, man.

Brant Evans:

Boom.

Brant Evans:

Last word, John.

Brant Evans:

Thank care.

Brant Evans:

Be safe, man.

Brant Evans:

Be well.

Brant Evans:

All

John Wood Jr:

right, you too.

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About the Podcast

Tending The Fire: A Journeymen Podcast
Illuminating the path of initiation, brotherhood, and mature masculinity.
What does it mean to step into your power as a man? How do we reclaim the wisdom of initiation and mentorship in a world that often leaves young men to navigate their journey alone?

Tending the Fire is a podcast dedicated to exploring these questions and more. Rooted in the mission of Journeymen Triangle, this space is for seekers, mentors, and men of all ages who believe in the power of authentic brotherhood, personal growth, and the ancient tradition of guiding the next generation.

Join us as we share stories of initiation, challenge outdated narratives of masculinity, and cultivate the tools needed to become the men our communities need.

🔥 Listen & Subscribe: https://tendingthefirepodcast.com
🔥 Stay connected. Stay inspired. Tend the fire.

Journeymen mentors young men (ages 13-19) during their transformation to becoming men.

Our mentors model healthy masculinity and nurture self-awareness and emotional growth, while supporting and challenging boys to discover their unique gifts. Journeymen Triangle is a 501C3 Charitable Organization. Find our More at https://journeymentriangle.org/
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About your hosts

Jordan Bowman

Profile picture for Jordan Bowman
Jordan is the Executive Director of Journeymen Triangle, a community mentoring organization that seeks to ensure that young men have access to a community of conscious, healthy men of integrity to support them in their transition to adulthood.

He is also an Associate within the Business Sustainability Collaborative at NC State University.

Outside of these two roles, he works as a mentor, coach, consultant, and facilitator for social impact projects and still finds time to enjoy yoga, good food, and friends.

Joey Spry

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